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Organic pH adjustment
http://byap.backyardmagazines.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=170		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  jason [ Jun 26th, '06, 15:27 ]
Post subject:  Organic pH adjustment
Hi everyone, How can the water pH be adjusted up or down using approved organic methods?.
What is typically being used?
I don't want to put anything in the water that i would not put straight in my mouth, as i will be eating it eventually in the fish or plants.
could simple household products be used?. eg. bicarbonate of soda, lemon juice, tartaric acid?
Author:  johnnie7au [ Jun 26th, '06, 16:28 ]
Post subject: 
I am not sure if this qualifies as "organic"

But I use "shell grit" (the stuff you give to chooks) to increase pH for my cichlids .. they love hard water. I guess I would use peat if I wanted to have water with a lower pH.
Author:  steve [ Jun 26th, '06, 16:38 ]
Post subject: 
MY opinion.

use the shell grit / sea shells as a part of your grow bed to buffer the ph.

If you have high ph, which shouldn't really happen in a functioning system as the bacteria by-products are acidic, then use a few drops of phosphoric acid. Now i know this sounds nasty and very chemical like (which it is both) but it is a simple acid, and has the benifit of adding phosphorus to your system. Don't forget our stomachs contain hydrocloric acid, another simple acid. I'm just saying chemical does not mean bad :) look on the back of your shampoo for some long worded bad chemicals :)
Author:  jason [ Jun 26th, '06, 16:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: Organic pH adjustment
Thanks for your input, my shampoo has none of those chemicals, i buy organic because i know what those chemicals can do to you.

how is the shell grit used in the system?, mixed with the media?

what do you mean peat? , do you mean peat moss?, how is this incorporated into the system.

My current water pH is 7.0, There must be something besides phosphoric acid to increase acidity. Ii have read that some aquaponics producers in the US are being certified organic, they must be using something else.
Author:  veggie boy [ Jun 26th, '06, 16:56 ]
Post subject:  Re: Organic pH adjustment
Don't see any reason why U couldn't use citric acid. Grow a lemon tree. Shit they use citrus in a lot of the homemade fish foods - I think Steve put lemons in his :shock:
Author:  aquamad [ Jun 26th, '06, 17:02 ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I think Steve put lemons in his

and I thought that he was just trying to pre-season his fish :wink:
Author:  steve [ Jun 26th, '06, 17:11 ]
Post subject: 
Jason, seems that there are alot of like minded poeple here :) Care ful of "organic" shampoo........ there has been more than one time i've spotted SLS in there :)

But do you get where i am going with the phosphoric acid? it not a complex synthetic chemical, no more than potassium hydroxide (an alkali, first made from "pot ash")

Any way, peat moss has an acidifying effect. As a side note though, it also lockup 'water hardness" i've used it to reduce the hardness of my aquarium on occasion.

Citiric acid (lemons) works well.

Vinegar forms intermediary reactions that ends up bouncing the ph back or locking up some nutes....... i cant remember which one :)

Jason, not being smart here, a genuine question, the definition i assume for organic is
Quote:
having been grown without synthetic chemical fertilizers, pesticides, or herbicides.


Quote:
Phosphoric acid, also known as orthophosphoric acid or phosphoric(V) acid, is a weak mineral acid with the chemical formula H3PO4.


would adding phosphoric acid negate is?

I only mentioned it becasue it can be handy way to get phosphate, which is often lacking, into the loop.

But if this is not needed then go the lemons :)

Steve
Steve
Author:  jason [ Jun 26th, '06, 18:10 ]
Post subject:  Re: Organic pH adjustment
I'm not sure, is it produced synthetically?, if it is, i guess it does not fit that
definition of organic.
i have no experience with phosphoric acid, you made it sound bad to me when you said 'nasty and chemical like'. if it is not toxic to living things, i'd be happy to use it, are there any other options for phosphorus deficiency?.

lemons seem the easy choice for the moment.

i agree that all synthetic chemicals are not terrible things. just as there are plenty of extremely toxic organic compounds, 'organic' does not always mean good for you. i expose myself to chemicals both organic and inorganic on a case-by-case basis.

I am interested in organic growing and possible eventual certified 'organic' growing assuming things go well.
does anyone know if aquaponics can be 'certified organic' in australia by any of the certifying bodies?
Author:  steve [ Jun 26th, '06, 18:20 ]
Post subject: 
Yeh, people that think organic the the context of food is the same as organic in the chemistry term are the same shit me :)

I think that wood ash is a BIG source of potassium, but its also alkaline.

Conc. Phosphoric is nasty, but if you drink coke then you're having your fair share of dilute phosphoric acid :) thats why it cleans coins and dissolves teeth (both in and out of your mouth :))

Its just easy to use 5 or six drops of conc. acid

Point is that it does occur in nature as a mineral acid prpbably one of the most important ones as with out it we probably wouldn't have potassium salts and with out them no ATP (the engine behind biological energy conversions)

Unlike organo-phosphates........ i'm fairly sure they weren't in nature's bag of tricks until we came around :)

But this is just all interesting theory, seriously, your system won't need to be buffered down in PH, trust me :)
Author:  Murray [ Jun 26th, '06, 18:52 ]
Post subject: 
Yes, I found that when I started a few months ago. My system was way up there, then, when the system was about 3 weeks old, in the space of 2 days the PH wend down to 6.8 to 7 and has remained there ever since, all by it's self.
I assume this is those little bacteria at work in my home made plant pot filter system.
I was worried about the ph at the time and asked lots of questions on the forum.
Twice a week I syphon out the bottom of the tank to rid it of all the muck and replace the lost (about 20 ltrs) of water with fresh from my house tank which is right up there in ph , but that new water makes little or no difference when I take a ph reading the next morning.
Murray
Author:  steve [ Jun 26th, '06, 18:55 ]
Post subject: 
Which is good.

My system is at about ph 8.0, ideal ph for bacteria (our specific ones) growth, just gotta watch the ammonia at this PH, frequent water changes if u have a small system. then as it reaches equilibrium (cool, got to use that word again) it will sit at around 7.0 - 7.5, good for fish ok for plants ok for bacteria.

Steve
Author:  earthbound [ Jun 26th, '06, 19:48 ]
Post subject: 
I rearely have ph problems, my large system has never had anything added to adjust ph, though I can't remember what the ph was now... My smaller system has had some problems with getting a little acid, bicarb soda sorted that out quickly and I'm pretty sure bicarb is a safe one for organic certification.

So far as obtaining organic certification. I did look into the processes required to gain certification and I think that aquaponics could possibly be one of the quickest and easiest was to become an organic producer... But only once the certifying body understands exactly how it all works, and assuming they can mould their procedures to suit aquaponics...

The only thing is ensuring your fish food is organic. Once your fish food is organic then everything going into your system is organic... :D
Author:  steve [ Jun 26th, '06, 19:55 ]
Post subject: 
Very true EB. Basically the fishfood is the only input
Author:  earthbound [ Jun 26th, '06, 20:25 ]
Post subject: 
Yep, but then thats when it gets intereesting.... Standard precedures require a perid of at least three years before you can obtain certification, this is so that your ground has at least three years of totally organic, time for previous fertilizers and chemical to leach out of your soil etc...

When you have a brand new aquaponic system, so long as all companents as classified as foodsafe under their guidlines, then thereshould be no waiting period.... It's virgin ground... I guess the gravel may be a concern as to where it's been....mmmmmm tricky..... must switch brain off, go and do dishes.
Author:  johnnie7au [ Jun 26th, '06, 20:35 ]
Post subject: 
Just watch it a little regards the lemons .. the essential oils may not be good for the fish .. like lemons, onions etc are not good for dogs and composting worms.

I use the shell grit in two ways .. incorporated into the fish tank along with gravel to line the floor, but I also use it mixed with gravel as my filter medium.

I have never had to use peat, but I guess it could be used as a growbed or used as a floor covering for the fish tanks.

As an alternative to shell grit I have seen people who are fanatical about cichlids use some lovely limestone rocks straight from the beaches we have here.
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